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	<title>Comments on: book: The Unfolding of Language, Deutscher</title>
	<atom:link href="http://alandix.com/blog/2011/09/08/book-the-unfolding-of-language-deutscher/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://alandix.com/blog/2011/09/08/book-the-unfolding-of-language-deutscher/</link>
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		<title>By: Bruce Fleming</title>
		<link>http://alandix.com/blog/2011/09/08/book-the-unfolding-of-language-deutscher/#comment-304</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Fleming</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Sep 2011 15:58:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.alandix.com/blog/?p=598#comment-304</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[More fascinating observations, Alan.  As it happens, Georgian has a class of &#039;inversion verbs&#039;, some but not all of which are experiential verbs and the subjects of which are marked with the dative case.  More here:

http://www.armazi.com/georgian/unicode/class_4_verbs.htm

It seems a sensible enough strategy and I have an idea that something similar exists in Basque.  &#039;To me a horse is visible,&#039; is perhaps more natural than &#039;I see a horse&#039;.  The horse may just carry on grazing, blithely unaware that he is under observation.  If he is left unaffected by my action, why designate him as an object?

If you found Deutscher&#039;s book rewarding you might enjoy &#039;Dying Words&#039; by Nick Evans, which strikes a nice balance between the concrete and the abstract, including the coming back into fashion of Sapir-Whorf.  By way of a cross-reference you may find appealing, he compares the potential of endangered languages to provide counter-examples with Littlewood&#039;s theorem about the eventual change of sign of Li(x) - pi(x), aka the strong law of small primes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More fascinating observations, Alan.  As it happens, Georgian has a class of &#8216;inversion verbs&#8217;, some but not all of which are experiential verbs and the subjects of which are marked with the dative case.  More here:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.armazi.com/georgian/unicode/class_4_verbs.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.armazi.com/georgian/unicode/class_4_verbs.htm</a></p>
<p>It seems a sensible enough strategy and I have an idea that something similar exists in Basque.  &#8216;To me a horse is visible,&#8217; is perhaps more natural than &#8216;I see a horse&#8217;.  The horse may just carry on grazing, blithely unaware that he is under observation.  If he is left unaffected by my action, why designate him as an object?</p>
<p>If you found Deutscher&#8217;s book rewarding you might enjoy &#8216;Dying Words&#8217; by Nick Evans, which strikes a nice balance between the concrete and the abstract, including the coming back into fashion of Sapir-Whorf.  By way of a cross-reference you may find appealing, he compares the potential of endangered languages to provide counter-examples with Littlewood&#8217;s theorem about the eventual change of sign of Li(x) &#8211; pi(x), aka the strong law of small primes.</p>
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		<title>By: Helen</title>
		<link>http://alandix.com/blog/2011/09/08/book-the-unfolding-of-language-deutscher/#comment-303</link>
		<dc:creator>Helen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Sep 2011 18:56:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.alandix.com/blog/?p=598#comment-303</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just thought you might like another Cumbrian example of saying the same thing several times: Torpenhow literally means &quot;hill hill hill&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just thought you might like another Cumbrian example of saying the same thing several times: Torpenhow literally means &#8220;hill hill hill&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: alan</title>
		<link>http://alandix.com/blog/2011/09/08/book-the-unfolding-of-language-deutscher/#comment-302</link>
		<dc:creator>alan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Sep 2011 11:20:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.alandix.com/blog/?p=598#comment-302</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks I had a look at one of Joanna Nicholls&#039; papers, although ran out of part way through - so much background needed, I found myself Googling term after term!  I&#039;ll return again after some of the concepts have sunk in.

The isolation of Tabassaran would certainly be consonant with the &#039;island&#039; principle.

I often wonder to what extent these grammatical differences change the view of a people.  I have heard that in Russian colours are effectively verbs: &quot;the sky blues&quot; rather than &quot;the sky is blue&quot;.  If this is right does it effect the way you perceive colour, as an active rather than passive property?  Interestingly the other Detscher book &quot;Through the Language Glass&quot;, is about Sapir-Whorf vs. Chomsky and uses colour words as the running example.

I like the idea of the grammatical system of Arabic being so richly interwoven that it cannot be changed.  Reminds me of so much code I know!  And self-reinforcing structures do seem to be a core aspect of the essence of life and knowledge.  However, as counter-example, I believe that modern Hebrew has lost all but 5 of its verb cases (I assume more complex expressions are now constructed with auxiliaries as in English).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks I had a look at one of Joanna Nicholls&#8217; papers, although ran out of part way through &#8211; so much background needed, I found myself Googling term after term!  I&#8217;ll return again after some of the concepts have sunk in.</p>
<p>The isolation of Tabassaran would certainly be consonant with the &#8216;island&#8217; principle.</p>
<p>I often wonder to what extent these grammatical differences change the view of a people.  I have heard that in Russian colours are effectively verbs: &#8220;the sky blues&#8221; rather than &#8220;the sky is blue&#8221;.  If this is right does it effect the way you perceive colour, as an active rather than passive property?  Interestingly the other Detscher book &#8220;Through the Language Glass&#8221;, is about Sapir-Whorf vs. Chomsky and uses colour words as the running example.</p>
<p>I like the idea of the grammatical system of Arabic being so richly interwoven that it cannot be changed.  Reminds me of so much code I know!  And self-reinforcing structures do seem to be a core aspect of the essence of life and knowledge.  However, as counter-example, I believe that modern Hebrew has lost all but 5 of its verb cases (I assume more complex expressions are now constructed with auxiliaries as in English).</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Fleming</title>
		<link>http://alandix.com/blog/2011/09/08/book-the-unfolding-of-language-deutscher/#comment-301</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Fleming</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Sep 2011 16:09:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.alandix.com/blog/?p=598#comment-301</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I found your blog during a mathematical browsing session and historical linguistics also happens to be my second love*.  In terms of complexity (is there a linguistic measure?) the languages of the Caucasus probably surpass even the Semitic languages.

A linguist called Joanna Nicholls observed that there is a striking morphological cleavage between the languages of the North West Caucasus and those of the North East.  The first are so-called head-marking and the second are dependent-marking languages.  

The former term denotes very heavy verbal morphology, where verbs are marked for subject, direct object, indirect object and much else besides, but negligible noun morphology, eg only two case markers, direct and indirect.  

The latter term, typical of Chechen, Avar and about thirty others, is a sort of mirror image: negligible verb morphology (tense, aspect and mood are all done with auxiliary verbs) but a mesmerising system of noun classes and case markers.  

As to why these languages might resist simplification ... with Arabic etc, it is difficult to see how you could mess with the poles of the triliteral root without bringing the tent down ;-)  The enduring complexity of the NEC languages might have less to do with any overarching structural principle which cannot be tampered with than the isolation and topography of the relevant terrain (42 locatives in Tabassaran, if memory serves, which it probably doesn&#039;t). 

(* Having no more than a pedestrian mind, I have never found out how to combine the two interests successfully.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found your blog during a mathematical browsing session and historical linguistics also happens to be my second love*.  In terms of complexity (is there a linguistic measure?) the languages of the Caucasus probably surpass even the Semitic languages.</p>
<p>A linguist called Joanna Nicholls observed that there is a striking morphological cleavage between the languages of the North West Caucasus and those of the North East.  The first are so-called head-marking and the second are dependent-marking languages.  </p>
<p>The former term denotes very heavy verbal morphology, where verbs are marked for subject, direct object, indirect object and much else besides, but negligible noun morphology, eg only two case markers, direct and indirect.  </p>
<p>The latter term, typical of Chechen, Avar and about thirty others, is a sort of mirror image: negligible verb morphology (tense, aspect and mood are all done with auxiliary verbs) but a mesmerising system of noun classes and case markers.  </p>
<p>As to why these languages might resist simplification &#8230; with Arabic etc, it is difficult to see how you could mess with the poles of the triliteral root without bringing the tent down <img src='http://alandix.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' />   The enduring complexity of the NEC languages might have less to do with any overarching structural principle which cannot be tampered with than the isolation and topography of the relevant terrain (42 locatives in Tabassaran, if memory serves, which it probably doesn&#8217;t). </p>
<p>(* Having no more than a pedestrian mind, I have never found out how to combine the two interests successfully.)</p>
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